"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn)
06/20/2016 at 11:35 • Filed to: None | 1 | 55 |
Can somebody please explain to me the problem with the Jeep shifter that may have led to Yelchin’s death?
CalzoneGolem
> ttyymmnn
06/20/2016 at 11:38 | 1 |
After you shift into P the shifter resets into the position that the shifter would be in if you had shifted into N.
ttyymmnn
> CalzoneGolem
06/20/2016 at 11:39 | 2 |
And this makes sense why?
CalzoneGolem
> ttyymmnn
06/20/2016 at 11:40 | 7 |
That is a question I cannot answer
Textured Soy Protein
> ttyymmnn
06/20/2016 at 11:42 | 1 |
Click here so I don’t have to re-type it.
Aaron M - MasoFiST
> ttyymmnn
06/20/2016 at 11:43 | 1 |
The shifter had no gates, you’d just push it up or down to select your mode and it would return to center. So if you stopped the car, you’d have to push up to put it into park. But, you’d also have to push up to put it in neutral, just not as much. While you couldn’t turn the car off in neutral, if you left the engine on while going to, say, check your mail, the car could be in neutral and just roll away.
Urambo Tauro
> ttyymmnn
06/20/2016 at 11:44 | 0 |
I feel like a video tutorial of how this newfangled shifter is supposed to function might be in order. I’m also having a hard time wrapping my head around it; I’ve never owned anything newer than a 1996 model.
Some say the design is weird, unintuitive, and dangerous. Others say its simple if you just give yourself five seconds to understand it...
ttyymmnn
> Textured Soy Protein
06/20/2016 at 11:44 | 1 |
Thanks. So it’s sort of a sequential gearbox thingie. I think I can see why they would do that (it’s cool?), but it’s such a departure from so many years of design that it just seems like a terrible idea to me.
Ash78, voting early and often
> ttyymmnn
06/20/2016 at 11:45 | 5 |
“Hey, let's make a tiptronic-style shifter that requires you to simply 'blip' into Park instead of providing a secure detent, locked position. That will be awesome."
ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
> ttyymmnn
06/20/2016 at 11:46 | 0 |
$$$
I was obviously too expensive to design a shifter that left the correct user feedback. This is not something that needed to be changed. A Nav system can be complicated. A Shifter cannot.
ttyymmnn
> Urambo Tauro
06/20/2016 at 11:46 | 0 |
But as I said to AtlasM, it’s so far from what people have grown accustomed to that it seems like a bad idea. Like touch screens in car, the lack of haptic feedback for such an important process is a recipe for disaster.
Ash78, voting early and often
> ttyymmnn
06/20/2016 at 11:47 | 2 |
Exactly. I still maintain that probably the KEY safety issue in cars in the coming decade will be the rapid divergence from historical ergonomic norms "because we can." There will be more. I hope it doesn't require regulation, but I wouldn't be surprised if the NHTSA or DOT steps in somehow to outline a few key items that must remain consistent between vehicles.
ttyymmnn
> Ash78, voting early and often
06/20/2016 at 11:49 | 1 |
Textured Soy Protein
> ttyymmnn
06/20/2016 at 11:50 | 2 |
I had the BMW version for 3 years and thought it was stupid. It’s just different for its own sake, and doesn’t make operating the car any easier. I got used to it but I’d have to explain how to use the dumb shifter to anyone else who drove the car. But at least BMW thought out the safety aspect of it, unlike FCA.
Now, rotary shifters like Jaguar (and other FCA vehicles like the Chrysler 200) are fine by me because they don’t over-complicate the process like the stupid return-to-center shifters.
Party-vi
> Ash78, voting early and often
06/20/2016 at 11:50 | 0 |
Audi uses the same shifter design, correct? I wonder if Audi is going to issue a recall, or did Audi dealers take the time to explain how their devices work as opposed to your run of the mill Jeep dealer?
jariten1781
> ttyymmnn
06/20/2016 at 11:51 | 0 |
You're just sending an electronic signal. Having a couple contacts and a self returning joystick is cheaper, smaller, and simpler (physically, not necessarily in operation) than having a multi-position ratcheting stalk that does the same thing.
ttyymmnn
> Textured Soy Protein
06/20/2016 at 11:53 | 3 |
I realize that there hasn’t been a direct, linked connection from the shifter to the gearbox for years, but established, fundamental design language shouldn’t be changed that much. Besides, I like having somewhere to rest my hand. Hell, even Airbus gives the pilot a place to rest his hand.
ttyymmnn
> jariten1781
06/20/2016 at 11:54 | 0 |
I agree that it’s simpler, and that it’s only an electronic “fly-by-wire” system. But such a departure from standard design practice isn’t always a good idea, imo.
Urambo Tauro
> ttyymmnn
06/20/2016 at 11:54 | 1 |
I found a video, and I think I understand it now:
Upon moving the shifter forward from D, you have to hold it just a little longer before it will move past R to engage P.
It doesn’t seem that you can “feel” park with your hand. You have to confirm it visually, or just be patient enough to wait for P to engage. Unfortunately, you CANNOT quickly “throw it into Park”.
I don’t find the shifter confusing, but I really don’t like the delayed engagement of Park. I want to be able to instantly “throw it into Park” when I’m in a hurry to hop out of the vehicle.
Rico
> Textured Soy Protein
06/20/2016 at 11:54 | 0 |
How can they forget to add in an alert that says you are not in park. On my Benz if I so much as open the door when I am not in Park it starts beeping hysterically that “Transmission not in park” in red letters.
Rico
> Party-vi
06/20/2016 at 11:56 | 2 |
If Audi is anything like Benz the system likely either beeps at you hysterically that you are not in Park or it automagically puts it in park when you turn the car off. If the Parking Brake is electronic it would likely auto enable it.
jariten1781
> ttyymmnn
06/20/2016 at 11:57 | 1 |
Don't disagree. It's a more elegant purely engineering solution but it doesn't do enough to take into account HF&E which can be a death knell to a design (literally I suppose).
jmgadget
> Urambo Tauro
06/20/2016 at 12:03 | 1 |
If it is anything like the one in my former 300. There are actually a few little “indents” on the P and D/S gears where it makes you feel a slight shift. To my knowledge there was not any delay in the shifting,
As for the confirmation. The cars do chime the hell out of you that your car is still in gear, But it also chimes when the key leaves the vehicle, so that might be confusing some people.
Ash78, voting early and often
> Party-vi
06/20/2016 at 12:04 | 2 |
If it's a widespread Audi thing, it must be pretty recent...I haven't seen it before. But some people said the high-end models use it (eg the A8) and have a level or two of failsafe measures that Jeep didn't put into place.
Flyboy is FAA certified insane
> ttyymmnn
06/20/2016 at 12:05 | 4 |
I don’t know, man. Audi’s been using almost the exact same shifter for years with no trouble. And BMW has the same thing with its weird angular handle thing, not to mention the smg/M shifters.
Maybe this is just the case of attention to detail of specific consumer bases...
TheTurbochargedSquirrel
> ttyymmnn
06/20/2016 at 12:05 | 1 |
I believe the way it works is you push it forward to go to reverse, pull back once to go to neutral, pull back again to go to drive. It returns to the center position each time. Basically push forwards to go up the RND selector, pull to go down. The trick is that in order to get to park you have to hold a button when shifting to neutral. Apparently it is not clear if you are in neutral or park. At least that is my understanding.
marshknute
> ttyymmnn
06/20/2016 at 12:05 | 5 |
In a normal shifter, there’s a plastic gate pattern that the stick slides through. It’s impossible to miss a shift since it’s either in the correct detent or it isn’t.
Chrysler, however, uses an electronic shifter. You can push/pull it, but it always returns to the center position regardless of whether it’s in drive/park/reverse/neutral. This means you have to look at which letter lights up to know if it’s in the right gear or not.
Audi also uses an electronic shifter, but all their cars will automatically engage the parking brake if you open the door and forget/fail to put the car in park.
Ash78, voting early and often
> ttyymmnn
06/20/2016 at 12:05 | 1 |
I didn't even need the audio, I know the movie so well.
TheTurbochargedSquirrel
> Party-vi
06/20/2016 at 12:06 | 2 |
Audi has a position on the shifter for park. The jeep I believe you have to hold a button while putting the car into neutral to put it in park.
Nothing
> ttyymmnn
06/20/2016 at 12:06 | 1 |
We have a 2014 GC. I don’t like the shifter, but I know how to use it, as does my wife. I also using the parking brake, although I can say my wife doesn’t, as a norm.
Things car makers do can be weird. I remember the first time I test drove a manual transmission Saab. The dealer had started it, pulled it around and told me to have fun. I stalled it at an intersection. For the life of me, I couldn’t figure out how to start the damn car.
ttyymmnn
> marshknute
06/20/2016 at 12:06 | 1 |
Thanks. This strikes me as a horrible idea.
ttyymmnn
> TheTurbochargedSquirrel
06/20/2016 at 12:08 | 1 |
From other replies, it also requires you to confirm visually that you are in the desired gear. Some things should be left to touch, not vision. Which is also why touch screens are such a horrible idea in cars.
ttyymmnn
> Flyboy is FAA certified insane
06/20/2016 at 12:08 | 2 |
Maybe this is just the case of attention to detail of specific consumer bases...
I think you are on to something here.
McMike
> ttyymmnn
06/20/2016 at 12:08 | 1 |
This is what the 2014-2015 Grand Cherokee shifter looks like.
The recall makes perfect sense after seeing this.
Party-vi
> TheTurbochargedSquirrel
06/20/2016 at 12:09 | 0 |
Sounds like it’s almost like BMW’s shifter - the stalk returns to the central position at all times, and you must hit the “P” button to place it into park gear.
ttyymmnn
> Nothing
06/20/2016 at 12:10 | 3 |
I’m an inveterate parking brake user. There’s a reason they gave us one.
BorkBorkBjork
> Flyboy is FAA certified insane
06/20/2016 at 12:11 | 3 |
Because BMW owners are well known for their ability to pay attention to certain “indicators” on their vehicles.
505 - morphine not found
> ttyymmnn
06/20/2016 at 12:13 | 2 |
I think the problem is that Jeep didn’t change it enough . See Benz introduced the column shifter, that’s completely different (and you have to press a button for park, instead of moving the stalk)
The BMW shifter is basically the same, just vertically - move fore and aft to shift between R-N-D and press the top button for P
Or see the Toyota Prius, same difference:
What all these have in common, is that
a) they all required you to completely re-learn the shifting, so that you replace the old habit with a new one
b) they all require you to do a separate, completely different action to put it in Park, so you know you did it or didn’t it, even if you’re off daydreaming.
The Jeep system did neither of these. They kept everything just like it was, because they thought that would appeal to the general buying public averse to newfangled toys. However, they also wanted to appeal to the buyers who wanted the newfangled toys, so they did change it to electronic, and by the way removed the tactile feedback old shifters had. So if you aren’t paying attention, you won’t know what you shift. No wonder they had roll-away incidents, while the others mentioned did not, even though all four utilize modern, all-electronic, spring-loaded solutions.
Typical Detroit half-assery if you ask me. Costing lives, as usual. Sad....
TheTurbochargedSquirrel
> Flyboy is FAA certified insane
06/20/2016 at 12:16 | 0 |
I believe with a BMW it will engage park if you try to open the door.
Probenja
> Urambo Tauro
06/20/2016 at 12:17 | 0 |
Yes and the shifter doesn’t need the user pressing the “unlock” button on the shifter to go from Drive to Neutral, that is likely how the accident happened.
BorkBorkBjork
> ttyymmnn
06/20/2016 at 12:17 | 1 |
Another question would be whether this car has any type of “hill assist” or other system that would, briefly, hold the brakes on the car to prevent it from moving. I feel like no matter how quickly he jumped out, if the vehicle was on that kind of an incline he would be hard pressed to sprint behind it. And if the car was rolling when he began to exit, then he would have known that it wasn’t in park.
Thomas Donohue
> Flyboy is FAA certified insane
06/20/2016 at 12:17 | 1 |
I believe Audi also has an ‘auto’ E-brake system (hopefully an Audi owner can confirm...I think it was MY 2014+). If you open the door and the car is not in park, it automatically engages the brake.
ttyymmnn
> BorkBorkBjork
06/20/2016 at 12:19 | 0 |
There are a lot of questions yet to be answered about this mishap.
Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
> ttyymmnn
06/20/2016 at 12:24 | 2 |
This stupid crap. Looks like a regular PRND shifter but isn’t. That position it is in now is the same position it is always in no matter the gear. To put it in “drive” you would pull it back four clicks, then it would spring back to center. Neutral would be a click forward from there, park another two clicks, etc. I myself have accidentally on at least four occasions put these stupid bastards into reverse instead of park, let off the brake, and found myself traveling backwards. Why can’t it just have different positions? Why is this necessary? Nowadays I just abuse the fuck out of it and SLAM that bitch forward to make god damn sure it goes into park.
SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie
> ttyymmnn
06/20/2016 at 12:26 | 1 |
The problem is that it didn’t have an H pattern.
SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie
> TheTurbochargedSquirrel
06/20/2016 at 12:31 | 0 |
Yeah, and you have to hold the button to get to park in an old school sluchbox too because they don’t want you jamming it into reverse when going forward. Doesn’t seem that hard.
jariten1781
> Urambo Tauro
06/20/2016 at 12:31 | 0 |
I’ve driven my brother-in-law’s...it wasn’t too hard. I don’t recall any consternation with having to ‘wait’ for a shift...it was pretty seamless.
Another thing it does is it won’t let you shut the engine off if you’re not in park. All of the roll-aways I've read about have been folks exiting the vehicle while it was running without applying the parking break. It does alert you if you’re not in park and you open the door IIRC.
Flyboy is FAA certified insane
> BorkBorkBjork
06/20/2016 at 12:32 | 0 |
I mean, they don’t care about the lack of beeping. But hopefully that find that somethings up when the car is beeping at you in a desperate attempt to save your life
SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie
> Urambo Tauro
06/20/2016 at 12:35 | 0 |
As someone who is continually disappointed by every new car, I think you have the right idea. I think my next and possibly last car will be an early 90s manual swapped Buick Roadmaster Wagon. They just keep getting worse in every way.
TheTurbochargedSquirrel
> SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie
06/20/2016 at 12:38 | 1 |
Except that was push the button to allow the shifter to move. Pressing the button here puts it into park. If you don’t push the button it still shifts but into neutral instead. There is no tactile difference between the 2 shifts, just a change in the light on top of the shifter.
SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie
> TheTurbochargedSquirrel
06/20/2016 at 12:42 | 0 |
Gotcha. Sounds dumb. Still don’t really care because he should have known how to drive his car.
TheTurbochargedSquirrel
> SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie
06/20/2016 at 12:48 | 0 |
It is possible he hadn’t owned the car for long. He may have been incorrectly parking the car with the handbrake on for the entire time he owned it and this time when he supposedly went to grab his mail he left the brake off. Any transmission that doesn’t clearly lock into a gear is a bad idea.
Steve in Manhattan
> ttyymmnn
06/20/2016 at 12:49 | 0 |
So his Jeep had an electronic transmission? I’m just learning about this ....
gmporschenut also a fan of hondas
> ttyymmnn
06/20/2016 at 12:56 | 0 |
It feels like a typical center console shifter, but acts just slightly different. The problem is that it is slightly different muscle memory than most other console shifters. I’ve been daily driving automatics for 13 years and the times I’ve driven the jeep it runs counter to that and takes some getting used to. I’ve gotten a bunch of shit and apparently need to go back to drivers Ed for being an innatitentive driver who should read the manual, dispite others saying the exact same thing.
brianbrannon
> ttyymmnn
06/20/2016 at 16:01 | 0 |
Shifter is fine. People are faulty
ttyymmnn
> brianbrannon
06/20/2016 at 16:03 | 0 |
Perhaps. But it is needlessly complex, and easy to misuse. That alone equates to poor design imo.